hazelwillow ([info]hazelwillow) wrote in [info]sounis,
2010-01-27 02:01:00
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  • Music: American Beauty Soundtrack

After listening to Megan's interview...

Megan said it is possible to see the myth of Persephone and Hades in her stories, and also the Western story of Beauty and the Beast.

Why did she quote these particular stories? How are they present in the books?

Is she referring to Gen and Attolia's relationship? The story of Hespira in QoA has always reminded me of the story of Persephone. In QoA Hespira's story illustrates Gen's marriage to Attolia, and how Eddis will have to lose Gen like Hespira's mother lost her. So could you see Gen as a Persephone and Attolia as a Hades? It definitely rings true in terms of Attolia's court (I bet it feels like the dreary underworld sometimes to Gen!).

Okay, just writing this is making me think through my own question. Persephone, Hespira and Beauty all fall in love with seemingly monstrous people. Beauty's love redeems the Beast and makes him himself again... just like Gen's love does for Attolia. That one's pretty obvious.

Really minor note: in some versions of Beauty and the Beast (don't know if it's in the Disney one, as I've never seen it...:( ), the Beast's castle is full of invisible servants --like the invisible Something which granted Horreon's wish for a chair for Hespira (excuse my spelling, don't have the books with me). :)

Gen's marriage to Attolia seems to bring balance to both Eddis and Attolia, politically (bringing peace, and stabilizing Irene as a ruler and a person...) --just like Persephone's union with Hades balances the year...

The most obvious parallel is Beauty saving the Beast. Of course Gen and Attolia reverse the genders, which is one of the things I love about them... :)

What do you all think? I'm sure I haven't seen all the parallels. And maybe she was also referring to AKoK, which I haven't read yet... 
Tags: gods and goddesses, mwt interviews, myths, stories

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  • 32 comments

[info]elvenjaneite

January 27 2010, 08:28:33 UTC 2 years ago

The last line of QoA is "And she believed him." Towards the end of Hespira's story there's this: "'I chose,' said Hespira again, and Horreon believed her." So yes, I think there's a definite (and deliberate) parallel between Hespira/Horreon and Attolia/Gen.

I'd have to think about your other parallels a bit more, but it seems to me that they're all definite possibilities.

[info]peggy_2

January 27 2010, 12:49:12 UTC 2 years ago Edited:  January 27 2010, 12:50:11 UTC

good catch, both of you!

"'I chose,' said Hespira again, and Horreon believed her." So yes, I think there's a definite (and deliberate) parallel...

It may also reflect how important it is to the author that you have a choice. It is a theme that re-occurs throughout all the books.


(eta a missing bit)

[info]elvenjaneite

2 years ago

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[info]philia_fan

January 27 2010, 12:36:19 UTC 2 years ago

Shameless self-promotion department!! Off-topic, too

For my own take on gender-reversed Beauty and the Beast, here's a link to my story published last summer by Hunger Mountain:
http://www.hungermtn.org/beautiful-beast/


[info]magicsandwiches

January 27 2010, 17:12:35 UTC 2 years ago

Re: Shameless self-promotion department!! Off-topic, too

I enjoyed that very much! Terrific ending. :D

[info]philia_fan

January 27 2010, 19:27:43 UTC 2 years ago

Re: Shameless self-promotion department!! Off-topic, too

Thanks!

[info]agh_4

January 28 2010, 00:45:32 UTC 2 years ago

Re: Shameless self-promotion department!! Off-topic, too

Yaaaayyyyy! I really like it. Good job. I feel like Roland sometimes. It was nice to read because it had both expected and unexpected elements. Fairytailish (well, yeah), but very fresh (as in new and delightful).

[info]philia_fan

January 28 2010, 13:18:22 UTC 2 years ago

Re: Shameless self-promotion department!! Off-topic, too

Thanks, agh.

[info]spellcoats

January 27 2010, 15:14:13 UTC 2 years ago

Funny, I thought of Hades and Persephone in reverse: Hades can be Irene and Persephone can be Gen, but I think it works the other way around, too. Once Gen loses his hand, he changes. A lot. To the point where he has the capacity to be even more ruthless a ruler than Irene is. And he is the one, in the end, who sort of kidnapped Irene and dragged her out into the middle of the ocean to propose marriage. Then, like Persephone, she finally chose him (in some versions of the myth, Persephone knew perfectly well what she was doing when she ate those pomegranate seeds, and the gold earrings = the pomegranate seeds).

[info]elvenjaneite

January 27 2010, 16:22:53 UTC 2 years ago

That's fascinating. Because I think it really does work both ways. Wow, good thoughts!

[info]keestone

January 27 2010, 17:31:47 UTC 2 years ago

That's a really good point. I'd thought of the Gen as Persephone and Irene as Hades specifically because Helen draws the connection with the Hespira story, but the doubled parallel is really cool.

[info]spellcoats

January 27 2010, 18:30:14 UTC 2 years ago

Also, if I remember correctly, the Beauty and the Beast myth stretches back to ancient Persia. At least, I think Donna Jo Napoli said that when she wrote her take on the tale, though I don't know how reputable a source she is on such things.

[info]keestone

January 27 2010, 19:12:39 UTC 2 years ago

Aarne-Thompson type 425 "The Search for the Lost Husband" is the category the Cupid and Psyche and Beauty and the Beast stories fit into. It's definitely ancient, and has popular variations worldwide.

Anonymous

January 28 2010, 00:38:18 UTC 2 years ago

Wow, great connection, I never thought of it quite like that!

El

[info]reader_marie

January 28 2010, 05:07:19 UTC 2 years ago

This is great! I hadn't thought about how the story works both ways until now, but it really does.

In some ways, Gen's loss of his hand is as huge an adjustment for him as turning into a Beast might be--and creates some of the same kinds of tensions, since he's often judged by his appearance. Plus it appears to hinder his chance at true love (thankfully, only "appears").

[info]kitsune_rains

January 27 2010, 16:22:46 UTC 2 years ago

I definitely see the parallels between Hespira/Atollia/Persephone.

In some accounts of the Persephone/Hades story, Hades abducts the girl because he was struck with Cupid's arrow. In Hespira's story, she is taken by Horreon's mother, and we all know the level of involvement of the gods in QoA. In a way they were all manipulated/forced into the relationships.

Also, in each story the romance has an ill effect on the world -- except in Gen and Attolia's case. Hespira's mother unleashes the insidious vines, Persephone's mother sends the world into famine... But what happens with Gen and Attolia? The Medes are (temporarily) repelled and peace is bartered. Is there something I'm missing there? Hmm...

(I don't know the story of the Beauty and the Beast very well, but your description of the invisible helpers makes me think of the myth of Cupid and Psyche.)

[info]hapaxnym

January 27 2010, 16:44:14 UTC 2 years ago

Well, at first Eddis is willing to plunge into war to revenge herself on Attolia's mutilation of Gen, just like Demeter and Hespira's mother. It was only after Persephone / Hespira / Eugenides showed willingness and free choice to stay with the Beast that Spring / compromise / peace could be obtained -- but still at a price (Winter / destruction of the temple / the domination of the Peninsula by an increasingly ruthless Annux?)

[info]kitsune_rains

January 27 2010, 16:51:51 UTC 2 years ago

Oooh, interesting. So are you suggesting that Gen's ascension to power may not be entirely for the good of the involved countries?

[info]meltintall3

2 years ago

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[info]spellcoats

2 years ago

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[info]elle_winters

2 years ago

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[info]hazelwillow

2 years ago

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[info]elle_winters

2 years ago

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[info]spellcoats

2 years ago

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[info]keestone

January 27 2010, 18:02:45 UTC 2 years ago

Ooh. I decided to double-check Perrault's version of Beauty and the Beast because I couldn't remember whether there were visible servants there (I recall one illustrated version having Beauty being attended by a very monkey-like servant, but I couldn't remember the version). Anyways, one of the differences between Disney's version of Beauty and the Beast and the more classic versions is that Beauty recognizes the kind heart inside the monster rather than inspiring the Beast to stop acting like a beast and be more kind (in fact, that's the one aspect of the Disney Beauty and the Beast that I really dislike because of the way it resonates with the "I can change him" romantic narrative and abusive relationships). I do see how you could parallel the classic version with Gen seeing something to love in Irene that she doesn't see in herself.

And then, I saw this rather relevant bit of dialogue:

'Tell me, now, do you not consider me very ugly ? '

' I do,' said Beauty, ' since I must speak the truth ; but I think you are also very kind.'

Ha!

BTW, Perrault's version has invisible servants, and if I remember correctly, so did the French black and white film La Belle et la Bete (which is excellent, and stunningly beautiful, and really worth a watch). The Disney adaptation had the Beast's servants transformed into inanimate objects, so you had singing teapots and dancing napkins, etc.

[info]keestone

January 27 2010, 18:03:29 UTC 2 years ago

Forgot to add the link to the text I just quoted: http://www.archive.org/details/oldtimestories00perr

[info]mycenaeth

January 27 2010, 18:49:52 UTC 2 years ago

Hahahahaha....

"You are very beautiful, but she is more kind."

No one could accuse the Queen of Attolia of being kind.

[info]checkers65477

January 27 2010, 22:39:49 UTC 2 years ago

Robin McKinley's lovely version, Beauty, has invisible servants, too.

[info]freenarnian

January 27 2010, 19:35:03 UTC 2 years ago

I think my favorite retelling of Beauty and the Beast is Beauty by Robin McKinley.

And my favorite take on Cupid and Psyche is C. S. Lewis's Till We Have Faces.

And, er, this may or may not be on topic... 0=)

[info]agh_4

January 28 2010, 00:57:10 UTC 2 years ago

Very deep everyone. I agree.
To sorta add to what Spellcoats was saying about the going both ways thing (and other people too):
Choice becomes a very big theme that turns up in many places. There's Gen choosing to marry Attolia, there's Eddis choosing to let him go back, there's Attolia choosing to marry Gen (over being taken over by Nahuseresh/Medes, oh what a choice!), and then her choosing to believe him/acknowledge that she loves him. And THEN there's Gen choosing to accept his handlessness after that goddess causes him to think about how things turned out.
Other: Costis deciding he'd serve his king no matter what, Ambiades choosing to be a turncoat.
Holy goat!

[info]queens_thief

January 28 2010, 04:36:57 UTC 2 years ago

Why didn't I make the connection?!

This is a duh moment for me. I don't know why I didn't really think about Gen and Attolia as Beauty and the Beast. Both tales are about the redemption that comes from being truly loved. And although physically Attolia is not a Beast she was one, or becoming one, emotionally deep down. She even compares herself to a war chariot.
"I am tired of driving people and forcing them to my will. I am like a war chariot with bladded wheels, scything down those closet to me, enemies and my dearest friends alike" (KoA 326).
Yet, I think thier love is mutual saving. Gen needed love just as much as Attolia did.
Wow! Thank for commenting on this. I am going to have to think about this more in depth.

[info]reader_marie

January 28 2010, 05:03:55 UTC 2 years ago

This is fascinating! I don't have much to add, but I was just thinking...

One of the reasons Gen and Attolia are so great is because their love story is full of the need for forgiveness and, much like all of the tales mentioned here, the need to look past appearances.

I've noticed that in KoA, there's a lot of talk about how Gen should look/act/be king/etc. I realize this is coming from an outsider (Costis) who's gradually being educated about Gen, but one of the things he (and we, with him) learns is that appearances don't really count.

And Costis couldn't learn it about Gen if he hadn't already learned it about himself, I think.

Not quite on topic...but it started out that way in my mind.
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